Curse

Winterclaw · Sep 25, 2009, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Well, you could have 8 DPS warriors GvG 8 DPS sassis or try to have an all warrior vs all sassis player event in HA. That might be able to settle things until there is a rematch.

Tenebrae · Sep 25, 2009, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Why should I test without buffs, or without PvE skills?

Maybe because those skills ARE NOT melee exclusive ? Maybe because someone uses X thing the reason is THAT thing is what is overpowered/unbalanced and NOT the one that uses it more effectively ? holy christ , do you misread on purpose ? . I even wrote "read carefully" .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Warriors can make use of Asuran Scan, Strength of Honour, For Great Justice, Save Yourselves. So can Dervs and Assassins.

So can Paragons , Rangers and you going secondary W and so ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

All three classes are overpowered, Warriors just happen to be more overpowered than Dervs and Assassins. What's your point?

What part of "they are not , once again you are blaming a class for your rage against Asuran Scan and other PvE Skills." didnt you get ¿? i think my point is pretty clear , please tell me what part you dont understand so i can try to explain myself even better ( gonna be hard thou ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Also, after what happened from the last screenshot, I don't see why I should even bother.

Just for fun , try the same skill bar and atts against a lvl 30 W destroyer .... but yes , considering what numbers can come out of that , you shouldnt even bother pal

.

Jeydra · Sep 25, 2009, 11:21 AM // 11:21

@Jaigoda -

Inexperienced groups can easily do the hardest areas in the game (except possibly DoA HM and UW HM - don't have enough experience with those areas) simply by running good builds. Do you agree?

I'm not getting into a "who does more damage, Assassins or Warriors?" argument. There was a thread on this in the Campfire, but it got closed after everyone started to troll everyone else, so ... I'll just say that if Assassins deal more DPS than Warriors then perhaps (arguably) they are more overpowered than Warriors. Which doesn't change anything in the argument whether Warriors are overpowered.

Like I said, I claim all melee damage overpowered, and Warriors just happen to be the most overpowered of them all. That means I'd nerf Dervishes, Warriors and Assassins, all of them, if balance were left to me. If Assassins are more overpowered than Warriors, I'd still nerf all three of them, no difference.

@Tenebrae -

So what if the skills are not melee exclusive? They're still overpowered. If you want to argue that Warriors are not overpowered but skills like For Great Justice, Asuran Scan and Save Yourselves are, by all means, go ahead. It's a semantics problem that comes right down to the same thing. I'm still going to call Warriors overpowered though, or I don't see when you can call a profession overpowered at all.

Paragons and Rangers cannot match the DPS of a melee character, you can try it and see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Just for fun , try the same skill bar and atts against a lvl 30 W destroyer .... but yes , considering what numbers can come out of that , you shouldnt even bother pal .

Lol, nice of you to give me a concrete thing to do. Now let me ask this: exactly what do you predict will come out of such an encounter? How much damage do you think I'll hit for? Also, tell me why I should use the same skill bar (i.e. not use an attack skill, go in as Elementalist primary, etc)?

draxynnic · Sep 25, 2009, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The 1k damage is an example - if you didn't get it, then consider the even more bloated example: do you think Warriors should be able to deal 10k damage a hit? The argument is that the reasons given for why Warriors aren't overpowered don't consider just how much DPS Warriors can currently do, and would reasonably apply regardless of whether Warriors are dealing 100 DPS or 10000 DPS. There has got to be some point when Warrior DPS is too high and the argument breaks down, yet it isn't mentioned.

Something of a strawman argument.

While I can see where you're getting at, to present a counterexample: A Necromancer with Discord and Necrosis can achieve a similar DPS to your 100 damage/hit Warrior. All they need to achieve this is for a hex and a condition to be placed on the target - something the rest of the party will probably do anyway, and if they don't, it's easy enough for a Necro to dish out both themselves. And they don't need to close to do it, so they aren't vulnerable to snaring.

And that's just one example. Elementalists, poo-pooed a bit in Hard Mode, can still do decent amounts of area damage with the aid of the Ebon Battle Standard of Honour. Mesmers can mass-produce Assassins and the rest of the AP spike. Ritualists, of course, have spirit spamming. And that's all the non-defensive nonphysicals.

So, to answer your implied question - DPS around 100 is acceptable because it's more or less in-line with what other professions can do - and those professions often aren't as easily countered as the Warrior (if only because they aren't potentially rendered impotent by a simple snare). 1k would obviously be overpowered, since that would be an order of magnitude over anything else.

Xenomortis · Sep 25, 2009, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Something of a strawman argument.

While I can see where you're getting at, to present a counterexample: A Necromancer with Discord and Necrosis can achieve a similar DPS to your 100 damage/hit Warrior. All they need to achieve this is for a hex and a condition to be placed on the target - something the rest of the party will probably do anyway, and if they don't, it's easy enough for a Necro to dish out both themselves. And they don't need to close to do it, so they aren't vulnerable to snaring.

Necrosis and Discord spam on recharge won't reach 100 DPS. You're looking closer to 50 to 70 DPS.
Another note is that if a warrior is doing 100 on auto attacks, what would he do if he used a skill? A skill that may not only do extra damage, but may cause a condition, provide extra adrenaline or cause knockdown. This is done on top of the basic attack.

Jaigoda · Sep 25, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Inexperienced groups can easily do the hardest areas in the game (except possibly DoA HM and UW HM - don't have enough experience with those areas) simply by running good builds. Do you agree?

I would like to disagree. If you give a 8 noobs a decent skillbar each and ask them to finish a more difficult dungeon in HM, theres about a 70% chance they will fail the run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm not getting into a "who does more damage, Assassins or Warriors?" argument. There was a thread on this in the Campfire, but it got closed after everyone started to troll everyone else, so ... I'll just say that if Assassins deal more DPS than Warriors then perhaps (arguably) they are more overpowered than Warriors. Which doesn't change anything in the argument whether Warriors are overpowered.

Like I said, I claim all melee damage overpowered, and Warriors just happen to be the most overpowered of them all. That means I'd nerf Dervishes, Warriors and Assassins, all of them, if balance were left to me. If Assassins are more overpowered than Warriors, I'd still nerf all three of them, no difference.

See, if you nerfed melee, then you would have to nerf at least 3-4 more classes. Necro's, mesmers, rits, ele's and paragons, all have builds that either punch out massive DPS comparable to a melee's, or have enough utility and support to turn HM into NM (see Imbagon and ER ele's). Melees are just part of the whole picture, and nerfing only them is just going to make a ton of people unhappy, and cause a bigger migration to casters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Paragons and Rangers cannot match the DPS of a melee character, you can try it and see.

Paragons do something better than raw DPS, and that's giving an 80% damage reduction to the entire party along with another ~30% about half the time, all while boosting everyone else's DPS with EBSoH and possibly GFTE.

What you're forgetting to realize is that ALL professions (except possibly rangers) are overpowered. You'd literally have to nerf half of the game if you wanted things to go back to how they were before PvE skills were introduced.

Jeydra · Sep 25, 2009, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

So, to answer your implied question - DPS around 100 is acceptable because it's more or less in-line with what other professions can do - and those professions often aren't as easily countered as the Warrior (if only because they aren't potentially rendered impotent by a simple snare). 1k would obviously be overpowered, since that would be an order of magnitude over anything else.

This is a big question; there's a lot to consider and I'm not so certain. I think Warriors will regularly deal more than 100 DPS if properly supported, while everyone else lags behind. Consider:

Ritualists - I don't have precise knowledge, but spirit spamming is probably the only viable method of using them for damage. Strengths include their damage hits at range, can be buffed by Painful Bond, their spirits are meatshields. Weaknesses include their spirits getting killed, the time it takes to set up, and line of sight. Once again I don't have exact numbers but I think they deal about 100 DPS once they set up (or about 90 DPS over the course of a fight, perhaps).

Elementalists - I did the calculations elsewhere. Assuming the enemy shattering so they trigger AP a lot, then an Elementalist might deal about 80 DPS at best.

Mesmers - Again I don't have precise knowledge, but assuming the enemy shattering the same was as Elementalists (AP triggers every 5s), then a Mesmer might deal about 100 DPS at best, a little less if they have to put up Auspicious Incantation / Arcane Echo, and even less if there're more than one Mesmer in the team.

We can see the order of magnitude here - it's about 100 DPS at best. Necros can deal a LOT more DPS of course, but they rely on physicals to trigger their skills.

On the other hand, a properly supported Warrior / Sin / Dervish can deal upwards 200 DPS, probably more (~300 DPS). And it's not that hard to give them this amount of DPS. GDW can go on ER backliners, Strength of Honor + Judge's Insight can go onto the same Smiter, the Vanguard Honor ward can go on a MM, and so on. If we accept the 100 DPS for casters calculations above, then 3 properly-supported melee will outdamage a full team of 8 offensive casters who've completely gone without healing.

If three melee can outdamage 8 casters, then you essentially have five free slots to keep the hexes / conditions etc off the melee, and to bring the buffs. In practice that's more than overkill and you've got room for even more damage (MMs, MoP callers, etc). I think there's no argument that when you do have 8 human players, there is only one concept to play on - you buff melee. It's simply much stronger than everything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Paragons do something better than raw DPS, and that's giving an 80% damage reduction to the entire party along with another ~30% about half the time, all while boosting everyone else's DPS with EBSoH and possibly GFTE.

What you're forgetting to realize is that ALL professions (except possibly rangers) are overpowered. You'd literally have to nerf half of the game if you wanted things to go back to how they were before PvE skills were introduced.

Yes, Imbagons are imbalanced as well (even their name implies they're imbalanced).

Before we nerf half the game, let's establish the options. I can see four. The first is to go ahead and nerf half the game. To do this we need to establish what the benchmark should be. If we accept the calculations above, then each profession dealing about 100 DPS max is good. it's also sufficient, since as pointed out earlier in this thread you don't need a Warrior in PvE. In this view then only those that consistently hit above 100 DPS need to be nerfed, while those that consistently hit below 100 DPS need to be buffed - i.e. buff Elementalists, nerf Warriors / Assassins / Dervishes, and so on. So an unsupported Warrior dealing about 100 DPS alone is good, well supported 200 DPS might be a more ideal case (two players supporting three melee, plus some extra damage as a reward for coordinating the teambuild, plus some extra damage for the auxiliary disadvantages that come with melee damage, e.g. terrain).

The second option is to buff everything to where Warriors / Dervishes / Assassins are at. This is a major change, including at least a 50% increase in power for all caster classes. Casters still might not hit for what melee can when supported, but it's two casters to one supported melee, which is much better than three casters to one supported melee. I suppose everyone will be happy with such a change except PvE monsters. It might also get some people to rage saying how easy PvE has become, although you could point out that this power increase doesn't make casters superior to physicals, just comparable ...

The third option is to allow all caster damage to be buffed - for example, Asuran Scan now makes all your attacks and your spells hit the target for +75% damage, Strength of Honour makes all your attacks (ranged and melee) and all your spells deal extra damage, etc. This is another major change, with consequences I can't foresee.

The final option is to simply do nothing. Physicals can grossly outdamage everyone else, that's how the game should be like. A reward for coordinating your teambuild, most PuGs don't know Warriors are DPS machines not tanks, [insert another reason here to maintain the status quo], and care nothing about how casters find themselves so sidelined when it comes to damage in a coordinated group.

Tell me which option you'd pick.

EDIT: Actually come to think of it saying casters deal 100 DPS is a gross overestimate, since in the areas that matter you're not going to trigger an AP every 5 seconds. Against that, saying melee deal 200 DPS when properly supported is a much better estimate. 200 DPS should be easily achieved with just Strength of Honor and GDW for buffing, although if desired you can probably buff melee damage even higher if you work the build enough (e.g. fitting in Judge's Insight). That just goes to show how wide the gulf is between melee and everyone else.

Tenebrae · Sep 25, 2009, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

On the other hand, a properly supported Warrior / Sin / Dervish can deal upwards 200 DPS, probably more (~300 DPS). And it's not that hard to give them this amount of DPS. GDW can go on ER backliners, Strength of Honor + Judge's Insight can go onto the same Smiter, the Vanguard Honor ward can go on a MM, and so on. If we accept the 100 DPS for casters calculations above, then 3 properly-supported melee will outdamage a full team of 8 offensive casters who've completely gone without healing.

Oh god you cant be serious , dreamland cheap numbers again ? you are just faking numbers and basing your entire argument on them , cant you see that is pointless ?. Now i can say those numbers are always 1XX and so ? without proofs they are all cheap words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Yes, Imbagons are imbalanced as well (even their name implies they're imbalanced).

Imbalanced is your favorite word right ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

So what if the skills are not melee exclusive? They're still overpowered.

Fixed , see ? .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you want to argue that Warriors are not overpowered but skills like For Great Justice, Asuran Scan and Save Yourselves are, by all means, go ahead. It's a semantics problem that comes right down to the same thing. I'm still going to call Warriors overpowered though, or I don't see when you can call a profession overpowered at all.

Semantics ? do i have to explain it to you like you were a child ?. You and me run at 20km/h , now i get into a train that goes 100 km/h ..... am I FASTER than you ? no dude no , its the train the one that runs faster , NOT me. You get it now ?.
You cant say im going "semantics" when you call all melee and necro overpowered ( yes , because in pve necro is OP ) and the rest balanced. The real thing would be melee and necro are balanced and in TERMS of DAMAGE the rest classes are underpowered. You are confusing words , less good =\= bad fyi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol, nice of you to give me a concrete thing to do. Now let me ask this: exactly what do you predict will come out of such an encounter? How much damage do you think I'll hit for? Also, tell me why I should use the same skill bar (i.e. not use an attack skill, go in as Elementalist primary, etc)?

Basically because you would be faking numbers and we dont want that dont we ?

And no , your "fixes" dont work , specially the "most logical" looking one , the third. Melee have to switch targets and run to them wasting time , ranged ppl just Tab+Space so that fix would be bloody imba. For AoE DoTs buffing SoH to affect them would be simply like a 2 button win :
-Make a nice ball , snare and 2AoE Dots , there you go 4000dmg on 10sec GG.

Please see beyond your rage against pve skills , warriors or melee are not the ones to blame.

Reverend Dr · Sep 25, 2009, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Run a physical heavy team in shards of orr.

Its not that warriors are 'imbalanced' when properly supported, its that Anet doesn't understand its own game and most mobs have little to no form of warrior hate. Warrior's can only hit the top of their DPS because Anet can't design mob groups properly.

PvE is vs AI, AI is beyond retarded. Notice how to make 'hard mode' or 'hard dungeons' they had to add mobs 10 levels higher, with higher armor, +50% damage on top of double damage, then give them monster only skills that do 400 or more damage a hit; all the meantime its still pretty difficult to regularly kill that one 1 guild lord with 8 level 20 players running interference. And don't give me an argument of PvP/PvE split or overpowered PvE only skills, they do make things easier, but things weren't difficult before that.

snaek · Sep 25, 2009, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by reverend dr

most mobs have little to no form of warrior hate

theres a ton of areas with blockspam (although not specifically 'warrior' hate

kinda offtopic but... i love the monsters that use shield bash but they don't have a shield equipped and so nothing happens

Jeydra · Sep 26, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Two things Tenebrae.

1: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=93. 250 DPS, unbuffed by the rest of the team. Tell me it's really hard to buff the DPS even higher.
2. I am not going to trouble any of my friends to test unless you give me a good enough reason. Other than call my numbers faked right now you are not giving me any reasons. Judging from what happened last time, no matter what screenshot I upload, you'll nitpick - you had this buff, you had that buff, you can't have all these buffs, you must've gotten a Sundering crit, and so on.

Therefore I'm going to simply ask you to give an order of magnitude estimate to how much you expect a fully-buffed Warrior to hit a level 30 Warrior Destroyer for, with a Sword (or Axe / Scythe / Hammer if you prefer). Unless you give me a number, I'm simply not going to bother posting or testing.

I'll say here also that I expect at least 250 damage with Sword and using skills, higher with the other weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Run a physical heavy team in shards of orr.

Its not that warriors are 'imbalanced' when properly supported, its that Anet doesn't understand its own game and most mobs have little to no form of warrior hate. Warrior's can only hit the top of their DPS because Anet can't design mob groups properly.

PvE is vs AI, AI is beyond retarded. Notice how to make 'hard mode' or 'hard dungeons' they had to add mobs 10 levels higher, with higher armor, +50% damage on top of double damage, then give them monster only skills that do 400 or more damage a hit; all the meantime its still pretty difficult to regularly kill that one 1 guild lord with 8 level 20 players running interference. And don't give me an argument of PvP/PvE split or overpowered PvE only skills, they do make things easier, but things weren't difficult before that.

Run Avatar of Melandru, Assassin's Remedy and 12-spec Purifying Veil.

If three melee out-DPS 8 casters, then you have five characters to dedicate to keeping the melee clean. Do you know how much hex removal / condition removal / anti-block / etc you can fit onto five characters? Furthermore, I do not see how giving mobs large amounts of melee hate is going to help, other than bring PvE more in line with PvP.

I have said and will continue to say that this is a PvE argument. PvP arguments have no place here. I do not see how your Hard Mode argument has any relevance to the point at hand, other than how it tacitly agrees that PvE nerfs should happen because of the PvP / PvE split and overpowered PvE skills.

Malician · Sep 26, 2009, 01:11 AM // 01:11

This thread amuses me.

As a PVE player who mostly plays in PUGs, the warriors I see in practice are worthless - because they are built around the PVE PUG idea of gameplay.

They bring a bunch of +armor +health tanking skills because the braindead monks don't have prot spirit. They're nothing more than a big pile of armor to toss at the enemy. I will often not add any physicals to the group; a caster can tank just fine with prot spirit + spirit bond + shield guardian spammed on them.

However, given a good team warriors are always going to be the tip of the spear. They're just too easily and effectively buffed and they function too effectively with a half-decent backline appropriately specced. To me, they're overpowered even if 99% of groups will never see that power.

Tenebrae · Sep 26, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Two things Tenebrae.

1: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=93. 250 DPS, unbuffed by the rest of the team. Tell me it's really hard to buff the DPS even higher.

Once again , autobuffed as hell , PVE SKILLS. Once again Fake numbers , LVL of the foe ? lower than 28 ( and that number can be taken as the average ), prof of the target ? cant be seen. And the last of all ........undead foe against HOLY DAMAGE from ...... guess what ? another pve skill ! .
That can be taken as average number of assassins in HM ? if your answer is yes , i wont bother anymore , i cant do nothing for you.
Wait ...... this is a Warrior thread , where is the warrior test ? fail ....

Fyi , DPS tests on MoD must last longer than 2 mins to see a good average , 5secs are very far from that . That is not DPS , its spike damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I am not going to trouble any of my friends to test unless you give me a good enough reason. Other than call my numbers faked right now you are not giving me any reasons. Judging from what happened last time, no matter what screenshot I upload, you'll nitpick - you had this buff, you had that buff, you can't have all these buffs, you must've gotten a Sundering crit, and so on.

The problem is that you are not fooling anyone and not even listening to the things im telling you . You keep blaming warriors or melee for your rage against some pve skills... is like talking to a wall .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Therefore I'm going to simply ask you to give an order of magnitude estimate to how much you expect a fully-buffed Warrior to hit a level 30 Warrior Destroyer for, with a Sword (or Axe / Scythe / Hammer if you prefer). Unless you give me a number, I'm simply not going to bother posting or testing.

I'll say here also that I expect around 200 damage with Sword, higher with the other weapons.

You are wrong but im not going to bother either , i can hit you with the truth right between the eyes and you still wont see it. You are blinded by your rage against PvE Skills and now focusing on blaming melee classes for that matter , nothing will change.
Say whatever you want , you wont change that fact. I wont answer either , im tired of talking to a wall . GL with your arguments , if they are so true , make a thread suggestion on sardelac and maybe something happens

Jeydra · Sep 26, 2009, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Are you going to give a number on how much you expect buffed Warriors to hit level 30 Warrior Destroyers for, or do you prefer to keep spouting rhetoric?

If you pick the latter, I'll ignore you as well.

Xenomortis · Sep 26, 2009, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Once again , autobuffed as hell , PVE SKILLS. Once again Fake numbers , LVL of the foe ? lower than 28 ( and that number can be taken as the average ), prof of the target ? cant be seen. And the last of all ........undead foe against HOLY DAMAGE from ...... guess what ? another pve skill ! .
That can be taken as average number of assassins in HM ? if your answer is yes , i wont bother anymore , i cant do nothing for you.
Wait ...... this is a Warrior thread , where is the warrior test ? fail ....

What the hell?

You have two legitimate points:
The level of the target cannot be seen.
The target is Undead and he's hitting for Holy Damage.

However we can see it's HM so the target is at least level 24.
As it's holy damage, it's doubled against undead. As no flat damage increase buffs are in effect, we can just half the damage to see what it would be versus a living enemy: 619 / 2 = 309.5 - so that's 309 or 310 (not sure which way it's rounded).

The overbuffed argument I do not get. Obviously he's buffed up, that's the point. PvE skills? The two big damage increases he used are not melee exlusive, no. But they are best run on melee characters. I completely fail to see how you can construct a reasonable argument based on that.

As for him not being a Warrior, Jedyra was talking about warriors at the time.
To be honest, it would be more sensible to view this subject with all melee physicals in mind, as they're all pretty similar in terms of power. It's not as though one is miles ahead of the others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

You are wrong but im not going to bother either , i can hit you with the truth right between the eyes and you still wont see it. You are blinded by your rage against PvE Skills and now focusing on blaming melee classes for that matter , nothing will change.
Say whatever you want , you wont change that fact. I wont answer either , im tired of talking to a wall . GL with your arguments , if they are so true , make a thread suggestion on sardelac and maybe something happens

A method has just been suggested as a way for you to back up your claims and challenge Jeydra's. You've just ignored it and thrown it back, replacing it with the same pathetic rhetoric you've been throwing around previously.
It really, really does not help your case at all.

draxynnic · Sep 26, 2009, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Necrosis and Discord spam on recharge won't reach 100 DPS. You're looking closer to 50 to 70 DPS.
Another note is that if a warrior is doing 100 on auto attacks, what would he do if he used a skill? A skill that may not only do extra damage, but may cause a condition, provide extra adrenaline or cause knockdown. This is done on top of the basic attack.

Necrosis and Discord together will do up to about 200 damage every 3 seconds. I'm presuming the Necromancer in question is doing something with the remaining 6 skills on their bar - which may not be adding another 100 damage every 3 seconds, but should be putting them up to a similar level and/or adding utility.

As for the Warriors being effective - in my experience, depending on the mob, I can at times find myself spending half or more of my time running (or walking at a glacial pace after being hit by a slowdown hex) rather than swinging. This is what balances the higher DPS - that they're not going to be 'in contact' all the time, while the ranged character can generally just stand and shoot (or cast). Plus, by needing to be adjacent to the enemy, the Warrior is in a more vulnerable position themselves (compensated for somewhat by higher armour, but still... a potential issue).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

This is a big question; there's a lot to consider and I'm not so certain. I think Warriors will regularly deal more than 100 DPS if properly supported, while everyone else lags behind. Consider:

{snip}

We can see the order of magnitude here - it's about 100 DPS at best. Necros can deal a LOT more DPS of course, but they rely on physicals to trigger their skills.

Ah, but all of these three can do their thing without needing any support from the others. AP-based builds might need some assists from the rest of the team to guarantee a kill, but there have been times when my AP mesmer has flagged the rest of the party away to take out a ranged enemy on a raised platform (such as Terrorwebs in Tombs or Kournan Archers on garrisons during vanquishes) alone. For obvious reasons, melee physicals wouldn't be able to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

On the other hand, a properly supported Warrior / Sin / Dervish can deal upwards 200 DPS, probably more (~300 DPS). And it's not that hard to give them this amount of DPS. GDW can go on ER backliners, Strength of Honor + Judge's Insight can go onto the same Smiter, the Vanguard Honor ward can go on a MM, and so on. If we accept the 100 DPS for casters calculations above, then 3 properly-supported melee will outdamage a full team of 8 offensive casters who've completely gone without healing.

Ah, but in those cases I'd attribute the damage from GDW, SoH/JI, or whatever to the character that cast it. The Warrior is the tip of the spear, but without the haft the Warrior would just be a knife.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If three melee can outdamage 8 casters, then you essentially have five free slots to keep the hexes / conditions etc off the melee, and to bring the buffs. In practice that's more than overkill and you've got room for even more damage (MMs, MoP callers, etc). I think there's no argument that when you do have 8 human players, there is only one concept to play on - you buff melee. It's simply much stronger than everything else.

However, if you had 6 casters (plus heal/prot), you could pretty much ignore all forms of physical hate. Sure, some areas don't have that much in the way of physical hate... but in that case taking more physicals is just how you adjust to the conditions. Other areas (the aforementioned Shards of Orr dungeon) are... well, expect to find some way of being useful that doesn't require hitting if you're a Warrior.

The take-home message, however, is that the theoretical damage a melee physical can do is tempered by the fact that said melee needs to get into melee. For spread-out or kiting opponents (hands up who's played "chase the monk" in hard mode? Especially if the Monk has Shield of Judgement?) the melee physical's damage output is often tempered by the time it takes for said melee physical to get into position, while a caster can often just stand and cast. As a result, if you did try to nerf those physicals so they'd have the same theoretical DPS as casters... their practical DPS would actually be considerably less, and for the sake or reducing their power in coordinated teams, they'd be shunned even more in the typical PUG. (It may be as much due to demographics as anything else, but it does generally seem to be the melee physicals that comprise the majority of LFG calls in zquest outposts...)

Tenebrae · Sep 26, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You have two legitimate points:
The level of the target cannot be seen.
The target is Undead and he's hitting for Holy Damage.

Conditions cant be seen ( cracked armor ) also neither asuran rank or mob`s class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

However we can see it's HM so the target is at least level 24.

Wrong , they can be 21+ .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

A method has just been suggested as a way for you to back up your claims and challenge Jeydra's. You've just ignored it and thrown it back, replacing it with the same pathetic rhetoric you've been throwing around previously.
It really, really does not help your case at all.

Yeah and throwing your BS on me is helping . Im not going to bother on taking a screen with my warrior without using pve skills , hitting with a max swd/axe/hammer and with 15 att points using no skills to see a 8-30dmg hit. Its like asking for a demonstration of 2+2=4 . If you feel like it , do it mister helper but the thing is that im not taking screens from other classes on tricky situations to proove my point , i dont need them. Its pretty clear that those 2XX minimum DPS he said are fake and all high damage hits are like that because pve skills , not for being a melee , not for being a warrior so the argument of "warriros are overpowered because of asuran scan bla bla bla" is worth nothing.
If you cant see it , feel free to ignore me , but i will say im wrong when i see those numbers on a 28lvl foe with NO pve skills or support buffs on the W because THAT is the only thing that will proove W to have those numbers or being overpowered.

Xenomortis · Sep 26, 2009, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Wrong , they can be 21+ .

It's an undead mob. Undead enemies in HM in that area are all level 24 or above. Unless you claim the 600 odd damage hit isn't hitting an undead enemy. You missed the chance to say he's hitting a level 5 charmable animal, which is possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Conditions cant be seen ( cracked armor ) also neither asuran rank or mob`s class.

The actual armour level is less important. I don't see why you need to argue about Asuran rank either. It's still legit if done at rank 10, 8 or 4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Its pretty clear that those 2XX minimum DPS he said are fake and all high damage hits are like that because pve skills , not for being a melee , not for being a warrior so the argument of "warriros are overpowered because of asuran scan bla bla bla" is worth nothing.

But the posts you're responding too are really talking about physicals in general. All the physicals can use these buffs and they should as we can reach demonstrable high numbers quite easily with them.

Yes, the PvE skills are overpowered. But so are some of the platforms on which they can be used.

Jeydra · Sep 26, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

And why aren't we considering PvE skills? Haven't I said, many times, that this is a PvE argument? If you want to say "Warriors aren't overpowered but the large variety of PvE skills available to Warriors are", by all means, I agree with you entirely. I'm just calling it under a different name.

You can only hit 2xx minimum DPS by being a melee (or a physical ranged attacker, although ranged attackers deal less damage than melee). There is no way to buff caster damage to this kind of level. If you think you can, prove it. On the other hand, you can easily buff a melee to hit 2xx minimum DPS on a level 28 foe.

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

As for the Warriors being effective - in my experience, depending on the mob, I can at times find myself spending half or more of my time running (or walking at a glacial pace after being hit by a slowdown hex) rather than swinging. This is what balances the higher DPS - that they're not going to be 'in contact' all the time, while the ranged character can generally just stand and shoot (or cast). Plus, by needing to be adjacent to the enemy, the Warrior is in a more vulnerable position themselves (compensated for somewhat by higher armour, but still... a potential issue).

They will be in contact much more than you think. How long does it take to run from the edge of the aggro circle to melee range? I remember reading from Ensign's article that the answer is about 3 seconds, and that's not counting a speedboost. Against this, every spell a caster casts has a 0.75s aftercast. This gives the caster two spells max before the melee gets there (and snares / cripple etc can be removed). There will be cases where the enemies are so far away that a melee cannot safely run up to them, but there are very few indeed.

Yes the practical DPS of a physical will be less than what the Master of Damage says it is, but it will still be at least twice that of a caster, and usually more, as you can instantly tell if you play with a fledged-out physical team.

You can call Warriors the tip of the spear and whoever is applying Judge's Insight etc to be dealing the damage, but the argument is the same. Can you think up a competitive teambuild that doesn't use the "support / cleanse physicals so they can deal damage" idea that can keep up with the kill speed of a team that does?

Bobby2 · Sep 26, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Warriors aren't overpowered but the large variety of PvE skills applicable to Warriors are

Nail on teh head, but I ain't complaining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You can call Warriors the tip of the spear and whoever is applying Judge's Insight etc to be dealing the damage, but the argument is the same. Can you think up a competitive teambuild that doesn't use the "support / cleanse physicals so they can deal damage" idea that can keep up with the kill speed of a team that does?

RoJ way?